Sunday, September 6, 2009
Hard Cases Test God's Laws
In the comments of my post on the Jaycee Dugard abduction (a post that my mom hated by the way), a wiseguy anonymous commenter said:
Yes, the commenter is right. I don't know how God would be able to turn this guy's sins around for good, but I know that He can and He is doing so. I know that when I die and finally understood the full scope of God's plan, then it will make sense to me, and I will see why those poor girls had to endure that awful experience.
In fact, I'll double-down and challenge the Christians who are reading, especially those (like me) who have young children: Can you bring yourself to admit that Jesus loves the guy who did this? (I'm not using his name because I think it's a ridiculous incentive our culture sets up, whereby serial killers and assassins are household names.) OK, if you can do that, now the real test: Could you possibly bring yourself to feel love for him, knowing that he too is a child of God?
If you can do that--and I'm not saying I can, because I keep reminding myself of what he did and don't want to forgive him for it--then you would have the ability to love anyone and everyone. Just like Jesus does, and just like He commanded His followers to do.
So the question is, why are you afraid to become more like Jesus? Is it to prove to us how much you care for kids, by publicly proclaiming how much you hate kidnappers?
Isn't that odd? We want to prove how much we love one group of people, by expressing our feelings of hatred for another? Is that really what Jesus' message is?
It's God's Will. After all, if it happened, God arranged the world just so for it to happen. It's for the greater good.Presumably the comment is referring to my Panglossian views as I've explained them on Free Advice, Sunday edition.
Yes, the commenter is right. I don't know how God would be able to turn this guy's sins around for good, but I know that He can and He is doing so. I know that when I die and finally understood the full scope of God's plan, then it will make sense to me, and I will see why those poor girls had to endure that awful experience.
In fact, I'll double-down and challenge the Christians who are reading, especially those (like me) who have young children: Can you bring yourself to admit that Jesus loves the guy who did this? (I'm not using his name because I think it's a ridiculous incentive our culture sets up, whereby serial killers and assassins are household names.) OK, if you can do that, now the real test: Could you possibly bring yourself to feel love for him, knowing that he too is a child of God?
If you can do that--and I'm not saying I can, because I keep reminding myself of what he did and don't want to forgive him for it--then you would have the ability to love anyone and everyone. Just like Jesus does, and just like He commanded His followers to do.
So the question is, why are you afraid to become more like Jesus? Is it to prove to us how much you care for kids, by publicly proclaiming how much you hate kidnappers?
Isn't that odd? We want to prove how much we love one group of people, by expressing our feelings of hatred for another? Is that really what Jesus' message is?
Comments:
Fortunately, as an atheist, I don't have to struggle with this. I don't have to feel anything towards this guy. Also, as far as I am concerned, he can drop dead tomorrow morning and I would not feel the slightest bit worse for it.
In my pre-libertarian days I would have gone further, but that was then. I still consider him a human being, however, and hence refuse to advocate barbaric punishments such as solitary confinement. However, I WOULD be in favor of condemning him to hard labor for the rest of his physically healthy life. Stone crushing, wood cutting, or similar activities. Provide him with reasonably healthy food while he is at it, and basic shelter. And put an non-removable tracking device on his body that can be monitored by anyone on the internet.
In my pre-libertarian days I would have gone further, but that was then. I still consider him a human being, however, and hence refuse to advocate barbaric punishments such as solitary confinement. However, I WOULD be in favor of condemning him to hard labor for the rest of his physically healthy life. Stone crushing, wood cutting, or similar activities. Provide him with reasonably healthy food while he is at it, and basic shelter. And put an non-removable tracking device on his body that can be monitored by anyone on the internet.
# posted by 
: September 6, 2009 at 12:19 PM
: September 6, 2009 at 12:19 PM
I don't like to get into theological debates with fellow Christians, but I would like to point out that Bob appears to follow a branch of traditional Christianity that has God predetermining every action. For Protestants, that theology began with Calvin and is still strong among Presbyterians and those who call themselves Reformed. Baptists and Methodists never went along with Calvinism on predestination, although we agree on just about everything else.
For us non-Calvinists, people really do have free will and God does not cause people to commit evil acts. We feel really disgusted by evil men because they have chosen to be evil. Also, I think the Bible makes it clear that repentance precedes forgiveness. We are under no obligation to forgive a child abuser who doesn't repent. And even if he does repent, justice demands that the criminal receive appropriate punishment.
For us non-Calvinists, people really do have free will and God does not cause people to commit evil acts. We feel really disgusted by evil men because they have chosen to be evil. Also, I think the Bible makes it clear that repentance precedes forgiveness. We are under no obligation to forgive a child abuser who doesn't repent. And even if he does repent, justice demands that the criminal receive appropriate punishment.
# posted by : September 7, 2009 at 12:35 PM
: September 7, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Fundamentalist,
Before I argue with you, I want to make sure you are really claiming what you seem to be. So you believe:
(1) Jesus doesn't love every sinner,
(2) We have to first repent before our sins are forgiven,
and
(3) That free will means God can't turn sinful acts to serve a good purpose?
If that's what you're claiming, then yes I think the Bible clearly says you are mistaken.
A clarification, I wasn't saying that everyone should just shrug, give the guy a hug, and move on. Even if my ideal world, serious ramifications would ensue when somebody got caught kidnapping little girls. My point in this post is that Christians are still supposed to love such a person.
Before I argue with you, I want to make sure you are really claiming what you seem to be. So you believe:
(1) Jesus doesn't love every sinner,
(2) We have to first repent before our sins are forgiven,
and
(3) That free will means God can't turn sinful acts to serve a good purpose?
If that's what you're claiming, then yes I think the Bible clearly says you are mistaken.
A clarification, I wasn't saying that everyone should just shrug, give the guy a hug, and move on. Even if my ideal world, serious ramifications would ensue when somebody got caught kidnapping little girls. My point in this post is that Christians are still supposed to love such a person.
"Jesus doesn't love every sinner..."
You know, I'm honestly not sure about this. I'm aware that God "so loved the world" and all, but in the OT there is evidence that God hates evil people. And look at Jesus' response to the Pharisees, calling the snakes and white washed tombs. I realize that any evil person now matter how evil can repent and all will be forgiven, but before they repent I think God's attitude is more complex.
#2, yes, I agree with that.
#3, no, I don't agree with that. God can and does cause good to come from evil, but that's not because he determined that the evil should happen.
"My point in this post is that Christians are still supposed to love such a person."
In what way? Pray for him to repent, of course, but anything else?
You know, I'm honestly not sure about this. I'm aware that God "so loved the world" and all, but in the OT there is evidence that God hates evil people. And look at Jesus' response to the Pharisees, calling the snakes and white washed tombs. I realize that any evil person now matter how evil can repent and all will be forgiven, but before they repent I think God's attitude is more complex.
#2, yes, I agree with that.
#3, no, I don't agree with that. God can and does cause good to come from evil, but that's not because he determined that the evil should happen.
"My point in this post is that Christians are still supposed to love such a person."
In what way? Pray for him to repent, of course, but anything else?
# posted by : September 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM
: September 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Fundamentalist,
Matthew 5: 43-48:
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 23:34:
34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
(And He obviously didn't mean, the soldiers were unaware that nailing Jesus to a cross would kill Him. They didn't know what they were doing, in the same way that any sinner [I claim] is ignorant of the full implications of his actions.)
As for the last one, we have the story of Joseph telling his brothers (after they sell him into slavery) that God "meant it for good." (I can't find the exact citation right now.) You admit that this sometimes happens, but why stop there? Obviously Joseph's brothers chose to sin against him; they still had free will.
In the same way, the greatest sins ever committed--Judas' betrayal of Jesus and the soldiers murdering Him--were turned by God into the complete redemption of humanity.
So we have two magnificent examples of the principle. I don't see why God would stop with just those whoppers of sins.
Matthew 5: 43-48:
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 23:34:
34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
(And He obviously didn't mean, the soldiers were unaware that nailing Jesus to a cross would kill Him. They didn't know what they were doing, in the same way that any sinner [I claim] is ignorant of the full implications of his actions.)
As for the last one, we have the story of Joseph telling his brothers (after they sell him into slavery) that God "meant it for good." (I can't find the exact citation right now.) You admit that this sometimes happens, but why stop there? Obviously Joseph's brothers chose to sin against him; they still had free will.
In the same way, the greatest sins ever committed--Judas' betrayal of Jesus and the soldiers murdering Him--were turned by God into the complete redemption of humanity.
So we have two magnificent examples of the principle. I don't see why God would stop with just those whoppers of sins.
"My point in this post is that Christians are still supposed to love such a person."
Wow. Aren't you special. I gather you love Hitler and Manson too. Me? I'd kick both their fukking asses and not worry a bit about all this nonsensical god crap.
Wow. Aren't you special. I gather you love Hitler and Manson too. Me? I'd kick both their fukking asses and not worry a bit about all this nonsensical god crap.
Obviously, Jesus said to love our enemies, but what did he mean? Clearly, pray for them and don't seek revenge. But, should we never resist rapists and murderers and just let them commit their crimes in the hopes that someday they'll repent?
The example of Jesus praying for those who crucified him is interesting, because God gave the Jews about 40 years to repent, but when they didn't he destroyed the temple and in the process killed over a million Jews.
I agree that we should love our enemies, I'm just not sure how far we should carry it. One of the hermeneutical problems with interpreting the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels is that Jesus used a rhetorical technique that was common with Rabbi's of the day--hyperbole. Sometimes it's difficult to decide when Jesus is using hyperbole, so you have to compare what he says in the Gospels with what he says elsewhere.
However, the real intention of my first post was to let people know that all Christian theology doesn't teach that God predetermines every action and is therefore the cause of evil in the world.
The example of Jesus praying for those who crucified him is interesting, because God gave the Jews about 40 years to repent, but when they didn't he destroyed the temple and in the process killed over a million Jews.
I agree that we should love our enemies, I'm just not sure how far we should carry it. One of the hermeneutical problems with interpreting the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels is that Jesus used a rhetorical technique that was common with Rabbi's of the day--hyperbole. Sometimes it's difficult to decide when Jesus is using hyperbole, so you have to compare what he says in the Gospels with what he says elsewhere.
However, the real intention of my first post was to let people know that all Christian theology doesn't teach that God predetermines every action and is therefore the cause of evil in the world.
# posted by : September 8, 2009 at 9:54 AM
: September 8, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Roy Hotub said:
Wow. Aren't you special.
Yes I am. And so are you. God made us.
I gather you love Hitler and Manson too. Me? I'd kick both their f**ing a**es and not worry a bit about all this nonsensical god crap.
And what would that accomplish?
Wow. Aren't you special.
Yes I am. And so are you. God made us.
I gather you love Hitler and Manson too. Me? I'd kick both their f**ing a**es and not worry a bit about all this nonsensical god crap.
And what would that accomplish?
Fundamentalist said:
Obviously, Jesus said to love our enemies, but what did he mean? Clearly, pray for them and don't seek revenge. But, should we never resist rapists and murderers and just let them commit their crimes in the hopes that someday they'll repent?
OK, so you agree with me now that Jesus loves every sinner, right? And that He wants us to do so as well?
You are assuming I mean something very particular in this post. All I said is, we are supposed to love everyone, even people who did truly awful things.
It's true, elsewhere in my writings I have explained that I'm a pacifist. But here you were challenging my claim that we are supposed to love all sinners.
However, the real intention of my first post was to let people know that all Christian theology doesn't teach that God predetermines every action and is therefore the cause of evil in the world.
I never said God was the cause of evil in the world, except in the sense that even you would agree with, namely that God created beings with free will who could choose evil, and He designed a world such that they had the actual ability to do awful things to others. Every Christian believes that.
Obviously, Jesus said to love our enemies, but what did he mean? Clearly, pray for them and don't seek revenge. But, should we never resist rapists and murderers and just let them commit their crimes in the hopes that someday they'll repent?
OK, so you agree with me now that Jesus loves every sinner, right? And that He wants us to do so as well?
You are assuming I mean something very particular in this post. All I said is, we are supposed to love everyone, even people who did truly awful things.
It's true, elsewhere in my writings I have explained that I'm a pacifist. But here you were challenging my claim that we are supposed to love all sinners.
However, the real intention of my first post was to let people know that all Christian theology doesn't teach that God predetermines every action and is therefore the cause of evil in the world.
I never said God was the cause of evil in the world, except in the sense that even you would agree with, namely that God created beings with free will who could choose evil, and He designed a world such that they had the actual ability to do awful things to others. Every Christian believes that.
Fundamentalist,
Sorry I re-read my post and realized I did say some Calvinist-sounding things in the beginning.
Anyway, to clarify, I don't think God "causes" us to sin. I think He gives us the option, but that when He designed the universe, He anticipated what people would choose in the unfolding circumstances, and arranged things so that even when we sin, it ends up fulfilling His intentions.
Thus, the cliche people say when something awful happens, "There must have been a reason."
I actually was raised Catholic and am fairly new to Protestantism. I haven't studied Calvin enough to know if I would classify myself as a Calvinist.
Sorry I re-read my post and realized I did say some Calvinist-sounding things in the beginning.
Anyway, to clarify, I don't think God "causes" us to sin. I think He gives us the option, but that when He designed the universe, He anticipated what people would choose in the unfolding circumstances, and arranged things so that even when we sin, it ends up fulfilling His intentions.
Thus, the cliche people say when something awful happens, "There must have been a reason."
I actually was raised Catholic and am fairly new to Protestantism. I haven't studied Calvin enough to know if I would classify myself as a Calvinist.
What a great post! As a Christian, and a parent, it really is humbling to be reminded of what we should be striving for, compared to what we actually are. I know what I would have to do (forgive), and I would try, I just don't know if I ultimately could. Probably it would be something I would stuggle with my whole life.
Even the Apostle Paul (St. Paul) laments in Romans 7 the difference between where he was and where he should be. If Paul could not achieve perfection, then I don't feel so bad! And Psalm 137 is a passionate expression of the desire for revenge against the psalmist's enemies. So it's natural to feel this way, but the words of Jesus that Bob quoted above clearly remind us what we're commanded to do.
Even the Apostle Paul (St. Paul) laments in Romans 7 the difference between where he was and where he should be. If Paul could not achieve perfection, then I don't feel so bad! And Psalm 137 is a passionate expression of the desire for revenge against the psalmist's enemies. So it's natural to feel this way, but the words of Jesus that Bob quoted above clearly remind us what we're commanded to do.
# posted by : September 8, 2009 at 11:32 AM
: September 8, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Sorry that I mistook you for a radical Calvinist. There are some good Christians and theologians who take the position that God determines everything and we don't have free will.
I agree that the Bible teaches that we should love our enemies, but I'm not sure how that works out practically. Clearly, God loves evil people in the sense that he wants them to repent and he'll forgive them if they do. But those who don't repent he treats pretty rough even in this life. God loved Israel in the OT but punished them severely many times. Of course, love motivated by a desire for the offending person to repent might involve punishment in the same way that a loving parent punishes children in order to discipline them.
But what does loving a child molester involve, practically speaking? Praying for his salvation, certainly, but anything else?
I agree that the Bible teaches that we should love our enemies, but I'm not sure how that works out practically. Clearly, God loves evil people in the sense that he wants them to repent and he'll forgive them if they do. But those who don't repent he treats pretty rough even in this life. God loved Israel in the OT but punished them severely many times. Of course, love motivated by a desire for the offending person to repent might involve punishment in the same way that a loving parent punishes children in order to discipline them.
But what does loving a child molester involve, practically speaking? Praying for his salvation, certainly, but anything else?
# posted by : September 8, 2009 at 2:10 PM
: September 8, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Bob, I like you. I really do. But, this is probably one of the weirder comments you have posted in a long time:
"I think He gives us the option, but that when He designed the universe, He *anticipated* what people would choose in the unfolding circumstances, and *arranged things* so that even when we sin, it ends up fulfilling His intentions."
Seriously, when it comes to thinking about religion, you are worse than Krugman on economics.
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"I think He gives us the option, but that when He designed the universe, He *anticipated* what people would choose in the unfolding circumstances, and *arranged things* so that even when we sin, it ends up fulfilling His intentions."
Seriously, when it comes to thinking about religion, you are worse than Krugman on economics.
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